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Tee uus teema Vasta teemale  [ 43 postitust ]  Mine lehele Eelmine  1, 2, 3
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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 21 Aug, 2012 8:30 
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Tsiteeri:
All Glory Is Fleeting
Insights from the Second Lebanon War
by Russell W. Glenn


Tsiteeri:
A Hizballah raid along the Lebanon-Israel border on July 12, 2006, resulted in the capture of two Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers and others killed and wounded. The response from Jerusalem was both quick and violent, surprising Hizballah's leadership and triggering the month-long Second Lebanon War. The event left the IDF a chastened force and Israel an introspective nation. The IDF's efforts to learn from the war and correct recognized deficiencies began immediately. This book draws on information provided by serving IDF personnel during a March 2007 conference held in Tel Aviv, interviews with retired IDF officers, and written sources. The analysis first reviews identified shortfalls, then offers an external perspective to provide further thoughts on sources of difficulties and analyze what the conflict offers the U.S. military in the way of lessons that might assist as it confronts operational challenges today and in the future.


http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG708-1.html


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 21 Aug, 2012 13:07 
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kaur3 kirjutas:
Tsiteeri:
All Glory Is Fleeting
Insights from the Second Lebanon War
by Russell W. Glenn


Tsiteeri:
A Hizballah raid along the Lebanon-Israel border on July 12, 2006, resulted in the capture of two Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers and others killed and wounded. The response from Jerusalem was both quick and violent, surprising Hizballah's leadership and triggering the month-long Second Lebanon War. The event left the IDF a chastened force and Israel an introspective nation. The IDF's efforts to learn from the war and correct recognized deficiencies began immediately. This book draws on information provided by serving IDF personnel during a March 2007 conference held in Tel Aviv, interviews with retired IDF officers, and written sources. The analysis first reviews identified shortfalls, then offers an external perspective to provide further thoughts on sources of difficulties and analyze what the conflict offers the U.S. military in the way of lessons that might assist as it confronts operational challenges today and in the future.


http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG708-1.html


Lugesin läbi. Mõned tähelepanekud:
1. Hezbollah tegevus tõi Iisraelile küll tõsiseid kaotusi, kuid ei takistanud neil saavutamast oma taktikalisi eesmärke
2. Juutide suurim läbikukkumine oli strateegilisel tasandil
3. Hizbollah oli üsna laialdaselt võimeline dekrüptima ja pealt kuulama juutide sagedushüppavat raadiosidet (kas keegi teab, mis seadmeid kasutati?).
4. TT rakettidega saab pealetungivale vastasele põhjustada olulisi kaotusi, kuid MITTE TÕKESTADA läbimurret
5. Paljude kaotuste taga olid taktikalised ja strateegilised vead, mitte riistvara puudulikkus

Eesti planeerijatel on sellest aruandest väga palju õppida.


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 21 Aug, 2012 14:02 
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Liitunud: 28 Juul, 2005 16:35
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Kui lubaksite - natu arutleks.

Tsiteeri:
4. TT rakettidega saab pealetungivale vastasele põhjustada olulisi kaotusi, kuid MITTE TÕKESTADA läbimurret


Hezbollah oli relvastatud umbes samavõimekate ja samasse põlvkonda kuuluvate TT relvastusega nagu EKV.
RPG-29 on umbes analoogne asi Kustiga ja erinevat AT-d (nt AT-7, AT-13) on analoone asi Milaniga.
Nende arv pole täpselt vist siiani teada, aga sündmuste arvu järgi võiks järeldada, et neid oli ka sama hõredalt kui meil.
Nagu näitas tankikaotuste arutlus siin mõni aeg tagasi - oli hävitatud tanke suht vähe (enamikus vajasid remonti eri tasemel) ja needki suuresti vanad mudelid.

Ehk kuna oma nahk kõige kallim - mida siit järeldada enda jaoks (peale tankide vajaduse offkoors)?
Kas me sama tasemel relvastusega oleme suutelised venelast vähemalt valusalt lööma või hävitame kah mõned tankid ja "vastane saavutab taktikalised eesmärgid"?
Kui Hezbollahil (rühma kuni kompanii suurused paramilitaaride jõugud) olnuks kasutada nt 70 T-72 tanki, milline olnuks sõja käik?

(ei suuna küsimustega kuhugi, lihtsalt arutlegem....)

_________________
/Veelgi hullem on see, et koos kohustusliku patriootliku riigioptimismi kehtestamisega nõrgeneks paratamatult ka meie ohutaju, mis on enesealalhoiuks vältimatult vajalik instinkt/ S. Mikser 2014.


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 21 Aug, 2012 15:18 
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Liitunud: 26 Juul, 2005 13:09
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Arutelu jätkuks.

Pilt
upload photo


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 21 Aug, 2012 15:34 
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Liitunud: 02 Veebr, 2005 21:50
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Asukoht: Eesti
Mulle jäi küll mulje, et peale seda konflikti Hezbollah autoriteet ja mõjukus nii maailma kui kohaliku rahva seas pigem tõusis...
Rääkimata nende enda enesekindlusest...
IDF´i oma aga pigem langes...
:dont_know:


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 21 Aug, 2012 23:59 
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Liitunud: 14 Aug, 2008 16:40
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tommy kirjutas:
Mulle jäi küll mulje, et peale seda konflikti Hezbollah autoriteet ja mõjukus nii maailma kui kohaliku rahva seas pigem tõusis...
Rääkimata nende enda enesekindlusest...
IDF´i oma aga pigem langes...
:dont_know:

Ju sa siis ei viitsinud aruannet läbi lugeda.


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 22 Aug, 2012 13:30 
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Liitunud: 28 Juul, 2005 16:35
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Päris huvitav oleks Hezbollah soomusevastaste relvade kasutamise statistika.
Kaldun praegu arvama, et relvastust kulus neil nende mõne tanki taastamiskõlbmatuks muutmiseks autokoormate kaupa.
Uuemad Merkavad on muidugi ka päris kõvast rauast (vene tankid nii kõvad pole).
Pole vist eriline liialdus öelda, et Merkava Mk4 meeskond võib eest tulevate T-72'de (sõltumata tuuningust) korral end suht turvaliselt tunda.

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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 22 Aug, 2012 13:51 
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Liitunud: 26 Juul, 2005 13:09
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Täpseid nr hit per tank on raske esimese hooga leida.

Tsiteeri:
Couple of correctives:

a.) The terrain in Lebanon is IDENTICAL to the terrain in Northern Israel, on which the IDF trains.

b.) If you train to fight hybrid threats, you just failed to understand the problem. It's a moronic term.

c.) Hezbollah were not armed with " Armed with sophisticate ATGMs". They had AT-3,4, 14, and Milan. Old Systems. Once the IDF operations and orders system went back to basics, Hezbollah was unable to hold ground or to prevent IDF manoeuvre.

Helps if you talk to the men that fought the war and not rely on web sites for analysis.


http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/the-hezbollah-myth-and-asymmetric-warfare

vt selle teema 1. lk.

Tsiteeri:
According to various Israeli and Western sources, during the course of battle in Lebanon, between 46 and 50 Merkava main battle tanks (of the 400 deployed) and 14 APCs were hit by anti-tank weapons, including 22 incidents where tank armour and 5 cases where APC armour was penetrated. Another six tanks and at least one APC were blown up by mines and IDEs.

Of those tanks hit by anti-tank weapons, 18 were the newest Merkava Mk 4 version (from the 401st armoured brigade), and six of these had their armour penetrated. Twenty-three tank and five APC crew members were killed. A large number of anti-tank guide-missiles and RPG grenades hit the tanks, but in most cases these did little damage. It was reported that one of the Merkava Mk 4 tanks survived 23 hits from anti-tank guided—missiles before it was finally disabled and its armour penetrated. All penetrations of Merkava armour, according to Israeli statements, were achieved by the Konkurs, Metis-M and Kornet-E anti-tank guided—missiles, and the RPG-29 rocket-propelled grenades. If one considers that 22 of 50 tanks had their armour penetrated, that gives a penetration rate of 44% (and only 33% for the Merkava Mk 4). According to Israeli Army statistics, the penetration rate for tanks during the 1982 Lebanon War was 47%, and 60% during the 1973 War. The crew casualties rate was also much higher in 2006 at 0.5 crew member for each damaged tank, while the rate per disabled tank in 1973 War is one full crew member


Tsiteeri:
In realisation to the limitations of the RPG-7, the Russian have developed the RPG-29, which is a 11.5kg launcher and a 6.7kg projectile available as either a high explosive anti-tank round (HEAT) capable of defeating 750mm of rolled homogenous armour or a thermobaric round for use against positions and structures. The RPG-29 has a range of 450m and the was used by Hezbollah during the summer of 2006 against the IDF. Despite some success, post operational analysis suggests, its effectiveness may have been overstated.


http://www.google.ee/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%22william%20f%20owen%22%20hezbollah%20anti-tank&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CE8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asianmilitaryreview.com%2Fupload%2F200712031855161.pdf&ei=ibg0UIiqD6mj4gSIoIGQAw&usg=AFQjCNE5IDgKQPMpcj_kWxPxdMokcoei2Q&cad=rja


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 22 Aug, 2012 14:34 
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Liitunud: 28 Juul, 2005 16:35
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It was reported that one of the Merkava Mk 4 tanks survived 23 hits from anti-tank guided—missiles before it was finally disabled and its armour penetrated.


:shock:

_________________
/Veelgi hullem on see, et koos kohustusliku patriootliku riigioptimismi kehtestamisega nõrgeneks paratamatult ka meie ohutaju, mis on enesealalhoiuks vältimatult vajalik instinkt/ S. Mikser 2014.


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 22 Aug, 2012 14:58 
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Kapten Trumm kirjutas:
Tsiteeri:
It was reported that one of the Merkava Mk 4 tanks survived 23 hits from anti-tank guided—missiles before it was finally disabled and its armour penetrated.


:shock:


Polegi nii väga haruldane:
Tsiteeri:
In one encounter within the urban area a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The driver's sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit directly by fourteen rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile.[11] The crew survived remaining safe within the tank until the tank was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later after repairs. One Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident.[12]


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 22 Aug, 2012 15:31 
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Liitunud: 26 Juul, 2005 13:09
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Tsiteeri:
- We knew the organization had advanced anti-tank rockets;the IDF's Military Intelligence even acquired one.We also understood that Hezbollah was positioning anti-tank units; however, we failed to understand the significance of the mass deployment of these weapons.

- The result: Anti-tankweapons caused most of the IDF casualties in the war-nearly all the Armored Corps' casualties and many from the infantry units. Morei nfantry soldiers were killed by anti-tank weapons than in hand-to-hand combat. Many of the infantry soldiers who lost their lives because of anti-tank weapons entered houses in the villages; the rockets penetrated the walls, killing them.


Alates lk 42

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/080311_lessonleb-iswar.pdf


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 22 Aug, 2012 17:18 
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Liitunud: 28 Juul, 2005 16:35
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Noh ja me rõhume kõvasti kustile?
10 laksu T-72 peale?
Lõpevad need 751 raketid enne otsa kui vastasel tankid.... :roll:

_________________
/Veelgi hullem on see, et koos kohustusliku patriootliku riigioptimismi kehtestamisega nõrgeneks paratamatult ka meie ohutaju, mis on enesealalhoiuks vältimatult vajalik instinkt/ S. Mikser 2014.


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 Teema pealkiri: Re: Iisraeli-Hezbollahi sõjast
PostitusPostitatud: 15 Sept, 2019 14:29 
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Liitunud: 26 Juul, 2005 13:09
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kaur3 kirjutas:
Tsiteeri:
- We knew the organization had advanced anti-tank rockets;the IDF's Military Intelligence even acquired one.We also understood that Hezbollah was positioning anti-tank units; however, we failed to understand the significance of the mass deployment of these weapons.

- The result: Anti-tankweapons caused most of the IDF casualties in the war-nearly all the Armored Corps' casualties and many from the infantry units. Morei nfantry soldiers were killed by anti-tank weapons than in hand-to-hand combat. Many of the infantry soldiers who lost their lives because of anti-tank weapons entered houses in the villages; the rockets penetrated the walls, killing them.


Alates lk 42

http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/080311_lessonleb-iswar.pdf


Hezbollahi ATGM-idest 2019.

https://calibreobscura.substack.com/p/h ... urite-atgm


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