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 Teema pealkiri: M16 Vs. AK47/Galil
PostitusPostitatud: 01 Nov, 2005 1:39 
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M16 Vs. AK47/Galil

A common debate in the small arms world is the M16 Vs. AK47 issue - which one is the better assault rifle. As probably the only western army in the world that have used both an AK47 variant (IMI Galil) and the M16 on a large scale, the IDF is often mentioned as a real life example.

The pro M16 claim is that the IDF usage of the M16 is a clear evidence of the weapon's quality, while the pro AK47 claim that the only reason the IDF switched from IMI Galil to the M16 is since it received them for free from the U.S. The truth is that the M16 is by far the superior weapon. It's lighter, more accurate, more versatile, and with proper maintenance it is very reliable. Indeed, it might be less sand proof then the Galil/AK47 series. However, all you need is to clean it once a day and it will work properly. Since modern armies clean their small arms on a daily basis even during combat deployment this is a non-issue.

In fact, most of the myth regarding the M16 unreliability date back to the Vietnam War when the M16 was first issued. The 5.56 mm ammunition used at the time was based on a low quality sticky gunpowder that caused massive buildup of dirt in the M16 mechanism and eventually to jamming problems. When the ammunition was replaced with a proper one, the misfire problems disappeared as well.
One the other hand, the IMI Galil is heavy, inaccurate and it is difficult to attach optics and other accessories to it without special adapters. Many people also don't like the Galil/AK safety mechanism but that's a personnel preference issue. The M16 design, however, is very user friendly and allow numerous modifications to be made such as interchangeability between the different M16 families. The large number of M16 variants used by the IDF for decades of continuous combat deployment is a clear evidence of that.

The reason for the IDF usage of the M16 over the Galil isn't the cost. It's the pure quality of the M16 over the Galil. Most of IDF troops dislike the Galil and will prefer a CAR15/M4 over it. Those who are using the cost factor are simply unfamiliar with the IDF assault rifles history. Short review - up until the mid 1970's the IDF standard issue assault rifle was the FN FAL. At that time most of the Israeli elite units were using the AK47, which was considered as better then the FAL. During the Israeli-Arab Yom Kippur War in 1973 the U.S. made a massive airlift to Israel containing large numbers of brand new M16A1 and CAR15. However, shortly after the war ended the IDF had adopted the IMI Galil as its new standard issue assault rifle so most of the M16 remained in storage.

The Galil wasn't a big success to say the least. Most of the IDF elite units weren't impressed with the new weapon and remained with the AK47, which also was also useful for deniability in covert deep insertions. In the late 1970's few SF units tried out the CAR15 and were tremendously impressed. A decade later, by the late 1980's, almost all elite units were already armed with CAR15, which was gradually replacing the IMI Galil SAR and the AK47. Note that this was years before the IDF had officially adopted the M16 in the early 1990's. The IDF SF units that adopted the CAR15 didn't had any cost issue at mind. They could have used either the M16 or the Galil. It made no matter budget wise, since both weapons were already available in masses. The decision was purely quality based and no one told the units which weapon to use. More clearly - in some IDF elite units the Galil was simply never used and they always preferred the CAR15 over it. Following the influence of the SF units, in the early 1990's the IDF had officially adopted the M16 family as its new standard issue assault rifle for all infantry oriented units, including both SF and conventional units. Today, the IMI Galil is mainly used by auxiliary and rear line units.

Lets again review the situation in the early 1990's. The IDF had large sums of Galil variants it procured over the years, and it also had large sums of M16 it received in the 1973 war as well as via U.S. Army surpluses shipments over the years. Both weapons were available in masses and there wasn't any current or near future need to procure either weapon. The IDF also had thousands of AK47 that were captured over the years. So the IDF could use the AK47 free of charge over M16 or Galil.
Eventually, the IDF chose the M16, so again cost wasn't really an issue. Further more, even if there was such a cost factor, then the IDF could have simply supply all rear line troops with the cheaper M16 and issue the more expensive Galil to the front line troops. The fact that the exact opposite was done speaks for itself. Moreover, some times the cost is less of an issue. The IDF often buy expensive Israeli weapons. For example, the Israeli Police bought the Jericho 941 handguns, while the IDF managed to get the better Sig Sauer 228/226. The Israeli M240 Sufa ("Storm" in Hebrew) jeep is yet another example. The fact that despite the domestic pressure the M16 was chosen over the Galil is yet another evident of its superiority.

Let's review the situation today. The IDF no longer receives M16 for free. Instead, Israel receives from the U.S. few billion dollars per year of FMS. However, the catch is that most of this money must be spent in Dollars back in the U.S. The M4 series is indeed cheaper then the Galil or even the new Tavor series. In order to buy gear and weapons using the U.S. FMS the item must be at least 50% made in the U.S. This is why the IMI is currently looking for ways to manufacture the Tavor in the U.S. - so that the IDF could buy the Tavor using FMS.
To summarize, the IDF chose the M16 over the AK47/Gail because the M16 is the better assault rifle in all parameters that matter. As for reliability, the M16 is reliable enough. As for cost it's a non issue. Modern small arms are relatively cheap. In fact, for modern armies who buy large sums, most optical sights cost much more then assault rifles per unit.
http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm


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PostitusPostitatud: 01 Nov, 2005 11:04 
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M4 on küll parem kuid M16, kuid väidetavalt on temalgi omad hädad, millega ta nõudlikumad kliendid hätta jätnud. H&K mehed võtsid "laenuks" paar M4 ning tekitasid kvaliteedilt parema relva - HK416. M4 prandamisel võtsid nad üle G36 elemente. Iseenesest hea lobbitöö kui arvestada, et uue USA armee automaadi konkursil esinev XM8-l on nii mõnigi G36 element.

http://www.hkdefense.us/corporate/media ... 4-5-05.pdf
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as75-e.htm
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,1 ... 6,,00.html

Teema all:
http://www.militaar.net/viewtopic.php?t=2515

on aga juttu sellest, et M4 on küll tore ja kompaktne relv kitsaste ruumide jaoks, kuid häda on tema ballistikaga. Ei lenda see moon piisavalt kaugele ning haavaballistika seisukohast ei tekita ta kaugemal kui 100m piisavalt vigastusi, et vastast tegutsemisvõimetuks teha.


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PostitusPostitatud: 07 Nov, 2005 12:32 
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Värske lugu HK416-st.

How to soldier: Heckler & Koch’s HK416 upgrade tackles the M4 and M16.
Form Jane’s International Defence Review, Oct. 2005.

By Charles Q Cutshaw

It is fairly common knowledge that the special operations community has long had reservations about the M4A1 Carbine. Lethality problems first surfaced in 1993, when Somali gunmen who had been repeatedly shot by Delta Force soldiers were able to continue fighting.
But lower than expected lethality is not the only issue with the M4A1. According to a 2001 Special Operations Command study, changing the M16 to a short-barrelled car- bine configuration creates a mechanism that approaches or exceeds the weapon's limits. The study states that all M 16-derived car- bines are "fundamentally flawed" for a variety of reasons. Shortening the gas tube gives rise to several undesirable side-effects, including early timing, in which the bolt is unlocked and moving to the rear while the cartridge case is still adhering to the chamber wall under residual pressure from the fired round. This causes failures to eject, separated case heads and other malfunctions.
The M4A1 has generally required intensive maintenance by its Special Forces users to keep it operational. Such problems have not arisen in the more common M16 series rifles because the latest M16A2 versions fire three-round bursts, which limits stress on the rifle, and because problems that are inherent in the carbine do not exist in full-length rifles.
Quality control
The main users of carbines are special operations units; and the nature of the missions these elite units undertake often leads to their M4A1 carbines being used in ways that were not envisaged when they were designed. Special operations users frequently have to lay down heavy volumes of fire to break contact with larger enemy forces. They also often add relatively heavy accessories to their carbines under the Special Operations Peculiar Modification (SOPMOD)XModular Weapon System (MWS) Programmes. The addition of such accessories not only adds weight to the weapon, but can also reduce its reliability. According to the study, the M4Al's reliability has been further compromised by a decline in quality control.

Specific M4A1 deficiencies include problems with reliability, safety, accuracy and ergonomics. Reliability problems have included failure to extract, failure to eject, broken bolts, failure to function in extreme cold and severe malfunctions in over-the-beach operations. Safety-related issues have included frequent cookoffs, burst barrels and burst receivers when the M4A1 has been used in over-the-beach or riverine operations and the barrel has filled with water.
Accuracy problems have included barrels becoming loose or shot out after firing a relatively low number of rounds, rail systems not retaining zero and general difficulties controlling the M4A1 in full automatic.

From an ergonomic standpoint, problems have been identified with a poor cheek-weld area on the butt-stock, , lack of ambidextrous controls, poor pistol grip and vertical foregrip geometry, and "multiple ergonomic deficiencies in the SOPMOD/ MWS systems". The most serious problems have involved jamming and overheating. Ultimately, it was concluded that a complete redesign of the M4A1 would be necessary to resolve the inherent issues - a programme with an estimated cost of up to USD2 million. Although a carbine reliability parts set was developed to address the issues identified, it was no more than a 'band aid' on a system that SOCOM considered to be flawed.

Another fundamental problem with the basic AR (Armalite Rifle) design arises from Stoner's use of a gas system similar to that of the Swedish Ljungman. This blows fouling and gases back into the rifle's receiver: a major flaw that makes the rifle sensitive to ammunition certain types of ammunition, which can generate quantities of carbon fouling, causing serious problems.
The US Army learned this lesson early as it specified ball powder for 5.56x45mm military ammunition. This powder quickly fouled the receiver and, in combination with some other misunderstandings regarding the M16A1, resulted in the deaths in combat of soldiers and Marines whose rifles ceased to function due to fouling, earning the rifle a reputation for poor reliability.
The fouling problem was quickly rectified by switching powders, but the basic AR remains a 'dirty' gun that requires intensive cleaning and maintenance. An entire generation of US service personnel has grown accustomed to this as the norm, although older military hands recall the American Ml and M14, FAL/L1A1 and Heckler & Koch (H&K) G3, which did not need the the high level of maintenance required by theM16.
Over the years there have been many attempts to rectify this inherent M16 operating system design deficiency by substituting gas piston and operating rod systems, with mixed success. But when Army Special Operations began looking for a product improvement for the M4, H&K offered to undertake the programme at no cost to the government, other than the loan of 10 carbines as Government Furnished Equipment through a contract with USSO-COM, for assessment.
After a detailed assessment of the carbine's general design and the issues already identified by the military, H&K proposed numerous modifications to improve the weapon's accuracy, safety, ease of maintenance, ergonomics, modularity and commonality of parts, using the performance of

the H&K G36 as a benchmark. H&K aimed to increase the reliability and component service life of the basic weapon by a factor of two to three times.
The HK416 began operational use in combat in 2005 with several special operations units and has successfully met all requirements. In a recent military acceptance test, a 254 mm barrelled HK416 fired more than 15,000 rounds without suffering a stoppage or parts failure. After 12,000 rounds, the carbine was capable of firing one inch, five-round groups at 100 m from a rest, using match grade ammunition. The test sample carbine had fired over 20,000 rounds as of June 2005 without suffering a failure, or a degradation in velocity or accuracy of more than five per cent.
So what has H&K done to make such a dramatic upgrade to the M4's reliability? Apart from the addition of a new buffer and drive spring, the modifications have all been made to the upper receiver. The Ljungman direct impingement gas system has been replaced by a piston and operating rod taken from the G36, which is itself an improved version of the proven AR-18 piston and operating rod system. This new operating rod system is the most significant single improvement in the weapon and is responsible for much of its increased reliability.
Overheating has also been dramatically reduced. When the M4A1 carbine is fired extensively in full automatic, hot gases that are blown back into the receiver can cause overheating, which in extreme cases may cause the barrel to loosen or stretch. When the latter occurs, the barrel can become bent, which can cause bullets to shoot out the side of the barrel. Overheating can also cause failures to extract and other problems. The operating rod system eliminates many of these problems along with the carbon fouling. The H&K system also eliminates the gas rings that surround the bolt, which are themselves problematic when they wear or get out of alignment.
Smooth carbine operation H&K has also developed an improved buffer and drive spring that smoothes the carbine's operation and reduces the cyclic rate to approximately 650 rounds per minute. The MIL-STD-1913 rail hand-guard is fully free-floated and retains bore sight when removed and replaced. The improved H&K handguard can be removed and replaced in less than a minute, without the use of special tools. HK416 barrels are cold-hammer forged and chrome lined.
The guns that have both upper and lower receivers manufactured by H&K also have some extra improvements: the buffer retention in the lower receiver has been modified and improved; and the magazine well has been flared to facilitate inserting magazines during quick changes.
H&K diopter-type sights have also been added, with a folding front sight and a removable rear sight that is fully adjustable for windage and elevation via the traditional H&K rotating drum system.
H&K-developed magazines that can be used with any AR-type rifle or carbine afford another significant improvement. The original aluminium AR magazines were designed to be disposable, but in reality they have often been used repeatedly. This presents two problems: they wear out relatively quickly as a result of their thin aluminium construction; and their openings allow access to dust and debris.
Although some modifications have been made to the original magazine design over the years, there had been no fundamental changes until H&K undertook a redesign. H&K magazines are all steel, with a completely new follower that will not 'nosedive', even when pushed as far to the front as possible. The feed lips have been modified to provide improved feed, as have the guide ribs, and there are no external openings in the magazines, except for a small opening at the top where the follower moves up and down.
This lack of openings means that when the H&K magazine is attached to the rifle there is no place for dust to enter. The magazine spring has also been redesigned and the magazine reconfigured somewhat. This is readily noticed when standard magazines and H&K magazines are placed side-by-side. Both 20 and 30 round versions of the magazine are available.

Room for improvement

Shooting the HK416 reveals just how much room for improvement there was with the
basic M4 design. Accuracy is excellent in both full and semi-automatic and the smooth operation of the HK416 in full automatic is remarkable. Muzzle rise is virtually nonexistent and the reduced cyclic rate makes it easy to squeeze controlled bursts.

Anyone familiar with the M16 or M4 has nothing new to learn when presented with an HK416. The manual of arms is the same, so there is virtually no learning curve. What is different, however, is how the HK416 transforms the M4 platform - it is essentially a new weapon that completely outperforms the current M4.
The HK416 can be purchased as a simple upper receiver replacement upgrade with an H&K buffer and drive spring that brings existing Ml6s or M4s up to HK416 standard, enabling organisations that already have Ml6s or M4s to obtain what is essentially a new and dramatically improved weapon for the cost of these components. The upgrade can be accomplished in seconds and there are no training issues. For those who want a completely new weapon, the HK416 is also available in that configuration.

Another new addition is H&K's enhanced grenade launcher module (EGLM) that mounts on the HK416's bottom MIL-STD-1913 rail in a matter of seconds, without the need for any tools, This 40x46 mm launcher opens to the side so that it is not restricted to short 40 mm rounds, as is the case with the M203. The EGLM, like the HK416, is fully ambidextrous and can be fired either on the carbine or as a stand-alone grenade launcher. When the EGLM is removed from the carbine and replaced, it retains zero. The EGLM is compatible with any weapon with a MIL-STD-1913 bottom rail. A shorter version of the EGLM has recently been adopted by the US Army, with the designation XM320. The author found the EGLM straightforward to use with minimal instruction on the weapon and its sighting system.
H&K has transformed the M4A1 carbine into a completely new weapon, which resembles the M4 externally but has internal modifications that make it far superior to the current M4A1. The HK416 is more reliable, more accurate, easier to maintain and has a service life of two to three times mat of the M4. It is adaptable to either M4 carbines or M16 rifles and is available in barrel lengths of 254,368,419 and 508 mm.
All HK416 barrels have a twist rate of one turn in 178 mm. The simplicity and economy of converting existing weapons by changing upper receivers cannot be emphasised enough. In the final analysis, we can only wonder why something like the HK416 had not been undertaken before, since the problems associated with the M4 carbine have been known for years. With the HK416 modification, the M4 and M16 should be capable of soldiering on foranother 50 years.


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PostitusPostitatud: 07 Nov, 2005 20:33 
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AK-47 ikka kõige parem pole kahtlustki 7.62x53 muljetavaldav padrun. AK'd ennast saab kasutada kõikjal, see peab vastu vihmale, liivale, tolmule...vene eriyksus kasutab seda isegi vee all!Aga m16.....m4'st rääkimatta see hyppab yles esimese tolmuga...eriti hästi juhtus see iraagi sõjas, kus ameeriklased vahetasid kogu aeg oma m16'sid, mis läksid liiva pärst rivist välja, aga iraaklased lasid ak'dest ja ei tundnud muret.. :twisted:


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PostitusPostitatud: 08 Nov, 2005 1:41 
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AK-47'l on siiski 7,62x39mm padrun.


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PostitusPostitatud: 08 Nov, 2005 7:16 
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Ei-ei-ei! See, mida vee all kasutatakse, ei ole AK-47!
Ma ei tea, mis see on, millega vee all lastakse. Aga ma tean, mis see ei ole.
Allveerelval on padrunid on sellised pikad ja noole või pigem harpuunikujulised. Vastavalt on külgvaates veidra kujuga ka salv.
Vee all tulistamisega on lood üldse nutused.
Kuul ja padrun peavad vee all lastes teistsugused olema, sest teadupärast on vee tihedus õhu omast 800 korda suurem.
St tavalise Kalashnikoviga vee all lastes tuleb arvestada, et juba kahe meetrine veekiht avaldab kuulile samasugust vastupanu, nagu 1,6 km õhukiht. Sinnakanti peakski ju automaadi maks. laskekaugus jääma.


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PostitusPostitatud: 08 Nov, 2005 9:55 
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Tarmo Männard kirjutas:
Ei-ei-ei! See, mida vee all kasutatakse, ei ole AK-47!
Ma ei tea, mis see on, millega vee all lastakse. Aga ma tean, mis see ei ole.
Allveerelval on padrunid on sellised pikad ja noole või pigem harpuunikujulised. Vastavalt on külgvaates veidra kujuga ka salv.

APS (Avtomat Podvodnyj Spetsialnyj) http://world.guns.ru/assault/as69-e.htm
SPP-1 (Spetsialnyj Podvodnyj Pistolet) http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg140-e.htm


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PostitusPostitatud: 08 Nov, 2005 21:02 
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ei-ei-ei ma tean neid ma voin pilte ka saata, aga vene eriyksus kasutab tavalist ak 47 vee all, kuidagi toru poolenisti alla suunas..kui vaja voin t6psustada. seda aps1 tean ikka tal salv kahekordne...sest nooled k6ivad sisse...koik need void leida>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


:arrow: www.world.guns.ru


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PostitusPostitatud: 08 Nov, 2005 21:05 
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P.s> sain teada t6psemalt et enne sukeldumist tuleb torusse 8hku j6tta ja vee all peab hoidma alla>45 kraadises asendis 8)


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PostitusPostitatud: 10 Nov, 2005 17:26 
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-=Mortyr=- kirjutas:
P.s> sain teada t6psemalt et enne sukeldumist tuleb torusse 8hku j6tta ja vee all peab hoidma alla>45 kraadises asendis 8)


Usu mind, sa ei tahaks isegi midagi sellist teha, nagu panna näiteks relva ots vette ja tulistada, veelgi enam siis täiesti vee all tulistada.

Polügonaalse vintsoonega ja eriti tugevate relvade kasutatav piir on see, kui võtad veest välja, raputad üleliigse vee välja, ja tulistad. See on enam-vähem maksimum, mida on mõistlik teha.

Arvestada tuleks, et takistus kasvab kiiruse ruudus, ja vee all on takistus niikuinii meeletu võrreldes õhuga.

Vee all laskmiseks on siiski spetsiaalsed relvad pea olematu toruga ning laskemoonaks nõelad. Laskekaugus on neil u. 5-6m


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PostitusPostitatud: 10 Nov, 2005 21:38 
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hahaha ära naljata.... 8) , kui tahad siis ma votan selle ak 47 osa vene keelsest raamatust (mul kodus) välja ja tõlgin selle sulle


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-=Mortyr=- kirjutas:
hahaha ära naljata.... 8) , kui tahad siis ma votan selle ak 47 osa vene keelsest raamatust (mul kodus) välja ja tõlgin selle sulle


Ära näe vaeva, mind sa niikuinii ümber veenda ei suuda :wink: . Sa võid ju oma arvamuse juurde jääda. Mina jään ka enda arvamuse juurde, et kalašiga vee all kõmmutamine pole just kõige alalhoidlikum tegu.


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PostitusPostitatud: 11 Nov, 2005 5:16 
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Loomulikult peaksid Sa tõlke siinkohal ära tooma.
Tavaline talupojamõistus ütleb küll, et selline käitumine peaks relva torule kabelimatsu andma. Aga mine tea. Maailm on ju imesid täis!
Lugesin noorpõlves raamatut kangelaspioneer Volodja Dubininist. Seal tehti talle nõndamoodi lühikese toruga vintpüss, et viiliti toru ümber rõngas, pandi ots vette ja tulistati.


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PostitusPostitatud: 13 Nov, 2005 20:01 
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nali naljaks olen ka ise ala russki ahotat lugenud on küll moditud kalass vee all uhamiseks noole kujuliste kuulidega.....ala 7 sm pikad või nii ning usakatelgi sellised ju olemas egas siis vee all aint nugadega killita ja delfiinidki ju 45 cal kasutasid

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kui miskit tahab siis installib MSN ja suhtleb.


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PostitusPostitatud: 15 Nov, 2005 0:01 
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venes toodetud AK-74 on väga hea relv.Rumeenia toodang, p..k(lukk kiilub kinni),Hiina toodang(pehme raud) Lasin kaks magasini järjest liivavalli,peale seda laseb kuhu tahab :shock:

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