https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 156&type=1Andrey Mocok
Есть предложение раз Полторак вместе с театральными батальонами рассказывают что дорога на Дебальцево проездная посадить всех в одну машину пускай проедут кто за поднимите руки.
ДЕБАЛЬЦЕВСКАЯ ДУГА В ОГНЕ. Обстановка на 13 февраля, 13.00.
Сражение на дебальцевском плацдарме прямо сейчас достигло небывалого накала.. Российские регулярные войска ведут массированный артиллерийский и минометный обстрел украинских позиций. Под прикрытием огня российские отряды штурмуют наши опорные пункты, пытаются прорвать оборонительный периметр. Мирные соглашения в Минске пока привели не к снижению напряженности, а наоборот - к эскалации. Враг сосредоточил в районе Логвиново-Калиновка не менее двух батальонно-тактических групп, усиленных артиллерийскими частями. Уничтожить узел сопротивления Логвиново-Калиновка можно только при серьезном массировании сил и средств. Противник пытается сорвать контрудар по Логвиново, сковать наши силы, атакуя по всему фронту плацдарма. Артиллерия противника проводит массированные налеты по нашим опорным пунктам и рубежам развертывания наших сил. Украинские войска ведут ответный огонь, отражают атаки, однако очевидно, что в результате переброски из России и с других участков фронта дополнительных подразделений россияне сосредоточили в районе Дебальцево силы, которые как минимум не уступают нашей группировке по численности и огневой мощи. Это воюет российская регулярная армия. Похоже, Путин решил продемонстрировать, что ему плевать на мнение Запада и на Минские соглашения, и он будет вести войну любой ценой. Это не мир - это полномасштабная настоящая война.
Sepakad on alati videodes nii murtud olekuga, aga pole nagu näha, et neid kõvasti töödeldud oleks.richard kirjutas:Vangilangenud separatistid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMsjpj1efY#t=176
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaHJnyjBHBg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRykwYMREkk
Lifenewsi kommentaatorina seletaks nii - kui hoolikalt vaadata siis ei näidata vangide varbaid. Järelikult on hunta need haamriga puruks peksnud!Raubritter kirjutas:Sepakad on alati videodes nii murtud olekuga, aga pole nagu näha, et neid kõvasti töödeldud oleks.richard kirjutas:Vangilangenud separatistid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMsjpj1efY#t=176
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaHJnyjBHBg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRykwYMREkk
Miks?
Ei taha offtopicut toita aga selleks, et aru saada, kuidas riigid lagunevad, tuleb võtta aluseks Webberi riigi definitsioon, mis ütleb väga lihtsalt, et "riik on organisatsioon, mis suudab kindlal territooriumil kehtestada legitiimse vägivalla monopoli. NSVL ei olnud selleks erinevatel põhjustel enam lihtsalt suuteline. Ja kuna see riik ainult sellel püsti püsiski, siis oli lagunemine kiire ja vältimatu.Martin Peeter kirjutas:
See hakkab nüüd olema OT, aga seda praegust Venemaad pole mõtet midagi kiita. N. Liit oli veel 1980 maailmas suhteliselt tunduvalt tugevam (nii sõjaliselt, kui mõjujõult), kui Venemaa praegu.
1980 polnud mingeid märgatavaid vabadusliikumisi. Kõik need mahasurutud liikumised tõstsid pead alles riigi nõrgenemisel. Venemaal on selle jaoks potentsiaali veel küll ja küll. Huilo on isegi eravestlustes tunnistanud, et Tšetšeenia on nii kaua Venemaa osa, kuni on pappi kohalikule pealikule maksta. Samuti võivad pead tõsta tatarlased jt Volga-äärsed rahvad ja terve Siber. Ärme unusta ka venelasi endid (s h perifeerias elavaid), sest ka neile on vähemalt osadele vahepeal hakanud meeldima hea elu. Mõtlemise muutumine võib selles kahtpalgelises propagandaühiskonnas väga kiiresti toimuda.
Reagan tuli 1981 ja lihtsalt võttis asja ette. 1986 oli N.Liit käpuli ja 1991 laiali. U on praegu oluline tegur ja täidab Afganistani rolli N.Liidu lagunemisel. Puudu on vaid Reagan.
Positiivne võib olla see, et kui rahu nüüd pärast teist Minski lepingut ka ei tekki, siis vast on Prantsusmaal ja Saksamaal rohkem motivatsiooni Ukrainat toetada.tsikkelröövel kirjutas: Üldiselt arvan, et see rahu kaua ei kesta. Ka arvan, et huilo laias laastus pigem võitis (oli see nüüd taktikaline või strateegiline, näitab aeg). Poroshenko sai kahtlase väärtusega kompromissi (milles ma teda ei süüdista), samas Merkel koos Hollandega jooksid jälle lati alt läbi. Nagu juba ennegi nähtud.
The view from the Kremlin
Putin’s war on the West
As Ukraine suffers, it is time to recognise the gravity of the Russian threat—and to counter it
Feb 14th 2015 | From the print edition
HE IS ridiculed for his mendacity and ostracised by his peers. He presides over a free-falling currency and a rapidly shrinking economy. International sanctions stop his kleptocratic friends from holidaying in their ill-gotten Mediterranean villas. Judged against the objectives Vladimir Putin purported to set on inheriting Russia’s presidency 15 years ago—prosperity, the rule of law, westward integration—regarding him as a success might seem bleakly comical.
But those are no longer his goals, if they ever really were. Look at the world from his perspective, and Mr Putin is winning. For all his enemies’ machinations, he remains the Kremlin’s undisputed master. He has a throttlehold on Ukraine, a grip this week’s brittle agreement in Minsk has not eased. Domesticating Ukraine through his routine tactics of threats and bribery was his first preference, but the invasion has had side benefits. It has demonstrated the costs of insubordination to Russians; and, since he thinks Ukraine’s government is merely a puppet of the West (the supposed will of its people being, to his ultracynical mind, merely a cover for Western intrigues), the conflict has usefully shown who is boss in Russia’s backyard. Best of all, it has sown discord among Mr Putin’s adversaries: among Europeans, and between them and America.
In this section
His overarching aim is to divide and neuter that alliance, fracture its collective approach to security, and resist and roll back its advances. From his tantrums over the Middle East to his invasion of Georgia and multiple misadventures in Ukraine, Mr Putin has sometimes seemed to stumble into accidental disputes with the West, driven by a paranoid fear of encirclement. In hindsight it seems that, given his outlook, confrontation may have been inevitable. Either way, the contest he insists on can no longer be dodged. It did not begin in poor Ukraine and will not end there. Prevailing will require far more resolve than Western leaders have so far mustered.
What the Kremlin wants
Last year Mr Putin lopped off Crimea, redrawing Europe’s map by force. The war he hallucinated into reality in eastern Ukraine has killed thousands. Even if the ceasefire scheduled for February 15th holds (unlikely, on past form), he seems certain to get what he wants there: a wretched little quasi-state in the Donbas, which he can use to stall and warp Ukraine’s development. Yet these incursions are only his latest bid to bludgeon former Soviet states into submission, whether through energy blackmail, trade embargoes or war. For Mr Putin the only good neighbour is a weak one; vassals are better than allies. Only the wilfully blind would think his revanchism has been sated. Sooner or later it may encompass the Baltic states—members of both the European Union and NATO, and home to Russian minorities of the kind he pledges to “protect”.
The EU and NATO are Mr Putin’s ultimate targets. To him, Western institutions and values are more threatening than armies. He wants to halt their spread, corrode them from within and, at least on the West’s fragile periphery, supplant them with his own model of governance. In that model, nation-states trump alliances, states are dominated by elites, and those elites can be bought. Here, too, he has enjoyed some success. From France to Greece to Hungary he is cultivating parties on Europe’s far right and left: anyone who might lobby for Russian interests in the EU, or even help to prise the union apart (see article). The biggest target is NATO’s commitment to mutual self-defence. Discredit that—by, for example, staging a pro-Russian uprising in Estonia or Latvia, which other NATO members decline to help quell—and the alliance crumbles.
Mr Putin’s stranglehold on his own country means he has time and freedom for this campaign. As he has amply demonstrated, he has no qualms about sacrificing Russians’ well-being to satisfy his coterie’s greed or to further his geopolitical schemes. He persecutes those who protest. And in the echo chamber his propaganda creates, the nationalism he peddles as a consolation for domestic woes is flourishing.
What is to be done?
The first task for the West is to recognise the problem. Barack Obama has blithely regarded Russia as an awkward regional power, prone to post-imperial spasms but essentially declining. Historians will be amazed that, with Ukraine aflame, the West was still debating whether to eject Russia from the G8. To paraphrase Trotsky, Western leaders may not have been interested in Mr Putin, but Mr Putin was interested in them.
The next step is to craft a response as supple as the onslaught. Part of the trouble is that Mr Putin plays by different rules; indeed, for him, there are no inviolable rules, nor universal values, nor even cast-iron facts (such as who shot down flight MH17). There are only interests. His Russia has graduated from harassing ambassadors and assassinating critics to invasions. This is one of his assets: a readiness to stoop to methods the West cannot emulate without sullying itself.
Russian timeline: The road to 2015
The current version of this quandary is whether, if the latest ceasefire fails, to arm Ukraine. Proponents think defensive weapons would inflict a cost on Mr Putin for fighting on. But anyone who doubts his tolerance of mass casualties should recall his war in Chechnya. If arms really are to deter him, the West must be united and ready to match his inevitable escalation with still more powerful weapons (along, eventually, with personnel to operate them). Yet the alliance is split over the idea. Mr Putin portrays the war as a Western provocation: arming Ukraine would turn that from fantasy to something like fact, while letting him expose the limits of Western unity and its lack of resolve—prizes he cherishes. If fresh Russian aggression galvanises the alliance, arming Ukraine will become a more potent threat. Until that point, it would backfire.
A better strategy is to eschew his methods and rely on an asset that he, in turn, cannot match: a way of life that people covet. If that seems wishy-washy beside his tanks, remember that the crisis began with Ukrainians’ desire to tilt towards the EU—and Mr Putin’s determination to stop them. Better than arms, the West must urgently give Ukraine as much aid as it needs to build a state and realise that dream (and as much advice as it takes to ensure the cash is not misspent or stolen). The IMF deal announced on February 12th should be only a start. Mr Putin wants Ukraine to be a lesson in the perils of leaning West. It should instead be an exemplar of the rewards.
Just as urgently, those former Soviet countries that have joined Western institutions must be buttressed and reassured. If the case for sending arms to the Donbas is doubtful, that for basing NATO troops in the Baltics is overwhelming, however loudly Mr Putin squeals. Western leaders must make it clear, to him and their own people, that they will defend their allies, and the alliance—even if the struggle is covert and murky.
And it isn’t only its allies who appreciate the West’s virtues. So do many Russians, including shameless Putinists who denounce the West’s decadence but exploit its schools and stockmarkets. It is long past time for every Russian parliamentarian and senior official to join the sanctions list. Far from being relaxed as, after Minsk, fellow-travellers may suggest, sanctions must be tightened—and sanctions-busting curtailed (see article). In the end, they will prove a stronger lever than weapons.
At the same time, the West should use every available means to help ordinary Russians, including Russian-sympathisers in the Baltics and Ukraine, learn the bloody, venal truth about Mr Putin. It should let them know that Russia, a great nation dragged down a terrible path, will be embraced when it has rulers who treat the world, and their own people, with respect not contempt, however long that takes.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/2 ... 12-02-2015
Vaenlasel on Loginovo - Kalinovka ruumis vähemalt kaks taktikalist pataljoni tugevdatuna suurtükiväega«Под прикрытием огня российские отряды штурмуют наши опорные пункты, пытаются прорвать оборонительный периметр.
«Враг сосредоточил в районе Логвиново-Калиновка не менее двух батальонно-тактических групп, усиленных артиллерийскими частями. Уничтожить узел сопротивления Логвиново-Калиновка можно только при серьезном массировании сил и средств», - утверждает он.
«Противник пытается сорвать контрудар по Логвиново, сковать наши силы, атакуя по всему фронту плацдарма. Артиллерия противника проводит массированные налеты по нашим опорным пунктам и рубежам развертывания наших сил. Украинские войска ведут ответный огонь, отражают атаки, однако очевидно, что в результате переброски из России и с других участков фронта дополнительных подразделений россияне сосредоточили в районе Дебальцево силы, которые как минимум не уступают нашей группировке по численности и огневой мощи», - пишет Бутусов.
В свою очередь комбат «Донбасса» Семенченко отмечает, что никакого "котла" под Дебальцево нет.
«Повторяю еще раз, то о чем говорю уже несколько дней: противник контролирует населенные пункты на трассе Артемовск - Дебальцево и дороге Дебальцево- Луганское. Логвиново и Лозовое. Это называется "оперативное окружение". Это блокада затрудняет снабжение группировки в Дебальцево, вывоз раненых. Но это никакой не котел, потому что есть масса проселочных и полевых дорог контролируемых ВСУ и Нацгвардией и снабжение и вывоз раненых происходит»
ja VF puhkajad ei ole välisriigist? 
versus:tympsa kirjutas:..kui keegi loodab, et Ukraina probleemid lahenevad sel teel, et Venemaa ise laguneb, - ma arvan, et see on tühi lootus.
..m.o.t.t.Papa luka kraapsjalad euroopa vägevate ees ei jäänud ju kellegile märkamata ja tooli sikutas ta samuti Putja alt ära mitte tahtlikult, vaid ta lihtsalt ei märganud seda tegelast, ruumis olid isikud kellele keskenduda ja kellele mitte. Putja mittemärkamine pole enam mingi sensatsioon euroopas, aga Valgevene puhul on see kõnekas.
Kasutajad foorumit lugemas: Registreeritud kasutajaid pole ja 1 külaline
