SS liikmete kriminaalvastutus

[krizz]

Aitab küll sellest Relva-SS jutust. Balti SS-leegionid kuulutati pärast sõda USA poolt tava SS-ist erinevateks ehk mitte kuritegelikeks. See pole mingi saladus. Ja see Leegioni väidetav sümbol käsi-mõõgaga on ka tegelikult omalooming, mitteametlik. Nii et vähem lolli tähenärimist ja tiblalikku fašistide/fašismi otsimist igalt poolt. Sama hästi võiks siis saba jalge vahele tõmmata ja oma ajaloost üldse loobuda. Nii lolliks ei maksaks ikka minna.

[Lemet]

Balti SS-leegionid kuulutati pärast sõda USA poolt tava SS-ist erinevateks ehk mitte kuritegelikeks

Viidet dokumendile oleks võimalik saada?

[Gideonic]

Balti SS-leegionid kuulutati pärast sõda USA poolt tava SS-ist erinevateks ehk mitte kuritegelikeks

Viidet dokumendile oleks võimalik saada?

See sama info on siit foorumist kümmekond aastat tagasi läbi käinud, aga ei suutnud leida neid konkreetseid viiteid. Wikipedias on igatahes ühte teist selle kohta Waffen-SS võõrriikide värvatute lehel (muuhulgas olid just nende üksuste endised võitlejad need, kes pandi valvama Göringit, Hessi ja teisi Nürnbergis)

Igatahes Siin on üks foorumipostitus, mis muugulgas refereerib Läti ja Eesti ajaloolasi sellel teemal:
https://historum.com/t/how-waffen-ss-so ... 46.187219/

The Schutzstaffel was banned as an Organization by Allied War Crimes Tribunal and all members of this Organization were not allowed to hold any public office, or any government or local positions concerning law enforcement or state security. However, the same War Crimes tribunal did over look the involvement of those who were foreign conscripts and did not voluntarily become members of this organization.Two specific groups of National foreign conscripts were given this protected status, and they were Latvian and Estonian Waffen SS conscripts. This was strongly opposed but the Soviet Union, because these Waffen SS units were mainly used to fight them on the Eastern Front and during the retreat of German military and civilian back to Germanys borders. To the Soviets these men were war criminals and they thought they should be treated no differently then any other Waffen SS Conscripts.

However, the Soviet views on this subject were over ruled by a vote at the Allied War Crimes Tribunal in Nuremberg effectively quitting all dissention raised by the Soviet Union on this subject. So do to the decision of the War Crimes Tribunal all captured Latvian and Estonian Waffen SS conscripts were given identity papers from the Allied Powers and they were released from POW holding camps with Germany and at other locations around Europe. But this created a problem for these men because their countries of origin where under Soviet occupation and they would be arrested as war criminals if they returned. So at this time there was idea if or when this occupation may end, but another problem also became a major issue was the fact that their Allied Identity papers did not allow them to immigrate to Western Countries that would except them.

So these men were in limbo, they could not return home and they had no place where they were currently go restart some semblance of life after the war. So they setup make shift camps across Germany and also across other allied Nations under non-Soviet control. So do to this situation some of these men contacted the Allied Headquarters looking for work. Then one of the Senior Allied Commanders who was responsible for helping DPs or displaced persons brought this situation to attention of his chain of command. I dont know exactly who made this decision but it was decided that since so many allied soldiers had been released and sent back to their countries of origin do the end of the conflict in Europe and then a few months later in Japan that personnel that would be need for Security Purposes not only in Nuremberg, but also at other allied installations that were located and under the control of the Western Allied powers.

That is when it was decided that Latvian and Estonian former Waffen SS Soldiers would be formed into companies and placed in guard and security positions at the War Crime Tribunal at Nuremberg. Eventually these men were commended for their loyalty and dedication while working as guards and in security positions. In the 1950s when they were no longer needed by the Allied Powers and since they could not return home they were given immigration, and were officially excepted by any Allied country they wised to immigrate too. Many immigrated to English speaking countries such as the United States, Briton, and Australia others decided to stay in Germany. But, while it appears that there was a happy ending for these solders, investigations into there activities as Waffen SS Conscripts went on well after their duty to the Allied powers ended.

Former Baltic Waffen-SS conscripts, wearing black uniforms with blue helmets and white belts, guarding Hermann Goering, Rudolf Hess, and other top Nazis during the Nuremberg Trials

Seal ka väga huvitav video selle kohta (viidatud just sinna, kus eestlastest räägitakse):
https://youtu.be/_qcEFnGeZ6A?t=374

[Lemet]

Ehk siis kõik on suht hall ala ning konkreetset dokumenti, mis üheselt määratleks, et Balti Waffen SS-leegionid kuulutati pärast sõda USA poolt tava SS-ist erinevateks ehk mitte kuritegelikeks ning millele annaks konkreetselt viidata tegelikult ikkagi ei eksisteeri?

[Ghostship]

Sellist nimelist ''Balti eriparagrahvii'' vist ei ole kunagi olnudki. Juriidika teema, kuidas tõlgendada umbmäärast Saksa poolt sundmobiliseeritute erikohtlemist võrreldes tavalise SS sõduriga. Leidsin igatahes sellise huvitava kirjavahetuse lätlaste kohta https://holocaustinlatvia.org/index.php ... leared.ssi. Mr. Rosenfield ütleb seal selge sõnaga, et peale korduvaid järelepärimisi vaatas DP komisjon teema läbi ja Baltlased loetakse muust SSi organisatsioonist täiesti eraldiseisvaks ja USAsse teretulnuks kui nad pole isiklikult midagi sellist korda saatnud, et oleksid julgeolekuohuks.

[Lemet]

Ehk siis võime meie kuitahes palju hüpelda ja vehelda, et leegion loeti ülejäänud Waffen SSist eraldiseisvaks, aga konkreetsele must-valgelt paberil olevale otsusele pole siiski võimalik viidata.

[isonts]

Ma saan aru nii, et Nürburgis kohtuprotsessi käigus tunnistati waffen-ss üksusena sõjakuritegudega seotuks. Samas ei loetud värvatuid sõdureid vastutavaks, kui nad sõjakuritegudes isiklikult ei osalenud.
Ehk mina saan aru selliset, et kui pole süüdimõistetud sõjakuritegudes siis olid kõik õiged mehed hoolimata sellest, millises üksuses nad teenisid.

[mart2]

Eesti ja Läti diviiside kohta võeti eraldi seisukoht, sest nende liikmed ei olnud vabatahtlikud ja võeti teenistusse mobilisatsiooni korras, ilma valiku võimaluseta.

... The Nuremberg Trials, in declaring the Waffen-SS a criminal organization, explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:
Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organization with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organization in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes.[42] ...
... 42. Nuremberg Trial Proceedings, Volume 22, September 1946 Archived 21 February 2007 at the Wayback Machine

Minule sellest piisab, kuid targemad ilmselt leiavad täpse sõnastuse.

[isonts]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waff ... _Estonian)
Wikipedia pole tõekriteerium, aga leidsin sealt järgenva lõigu:
"The Nuremberg Trials, in declaring the Waffen-SS a criminal organization, explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:

Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organization with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organization in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes.[42]

The Nuremberg tribunal ruled that the 30,000 Estonians who had served in the Baltic Legions were conscripts, not volunteers, and defined them as freedom fighters protecting their homelands from a Soviet occupation and as such they were not true members of the criminal Waffen SS.[43][need quotation to verify]

Subsequently, on 13 April 1950, a message from the Allied High Commission (HICOG), signed by John J. McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the Baltic Legions: "they were not to be seen as 'movements', 'volunteer', or 'SS'. In short, they had not been given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members".[44]

The US Displaced Persons Commission declared in September 1950 that: "The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the government of the United States."[45]"
Lääne saksas tegeles waffen-ss`i võitlejate(sakslased) rehalibiteerimisega selline organisatsioon nagu Hilfsgemeinschaft auf Gegenseitigkeit der Angehörigen der ehemaligen Waffen-SS (HIAG) .
Kiire diagonaalis lugemine ütles, et mingi edu nad ka saavutasid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIAG

[Lemet]

Tribunal tunnistab harta tähenduses kuritegelikuks nendest isikutest koosneva rühma kes olid ametlikult vastu võetud SS-i liikmeks, nagu on loetletud eelmises lõigus ja kes said või jäid organisatsiooni liikmeks teadmisega, et seda kasutati harta artikli 6 alusel kuritegelikuks tunnistatud tegude sooritamiseks või kes olid isiklikult seotud organisatsiooni liikmed selliste kuritegude toimepanemises,

Täpsemalt siis millisest hartast jutt?

[Kriku]

Kui Nürnbergi tribunal, siis tõenäoliselt ikka Nürnbergi hartast?

[croman40]

Nürnbergi tribunali SS-i puudutav kohtuotsus, koos viidetega hartale jne.

Eesti leegionäre puudutab lõik - "süüdistusest vabastatakse organisatsiooni liikmed, keda kutsuti väeteenistusse riigi poolt viisil, mis ei jätnud neile selles küsimuses valikut ja kes ei olnud sooritanud eespool loetletud sõjakuritegusid".

NB! Kuskil ei märgita eraldi Eestit, Lätit või Baltikumi ja jutt käib isikutest, mitte üksustest!

[Rebane11]

Üsna sõja algul toimus järjekordne Galiitsia veteranide marss. Keegi Алексей Петров , Ukraina bogija saigi selle Mark Feltoni videoga maha rahustatud.Ei jälgi teda juba ammu - liiga palju sõnu.

[aksel90]

Nürnbergi tribunali SS-i puudutav kohtuotsus, koos viidetega hartale jne.

Seda lugedes ei saa lahti mõttest, et võrdse kohtlemise korral oleks ka Punaarmee tulnud kuritegelikuks organisatsiooniks kuulutada. Paraku kirjutab võitja ajalugu ja saab õiguse mõista kaotaja süüdi kuritegudes, mida ka ise massiliselt sooritas.

[Kriku]

Wehrmachti ju ei kuulutatud?