Pakun välja, et samal põhjusel, miks Punaarmee sai veel 1945. aastal vangi võtta eestlasi, kuigi Eesti juba ammu suurde N.Liitu oli tagasi haaratud.stilett kirjutas:Iseenesest põnevad andmed, ainult ma ei saa aru, kuidas sai Punaarmee 1945 aastal võtta vangi rumeenlasi, kui Rumeenia juba eelmisest aastast (24.08.44) oli Venemaa liitlane ja sõdisid ühel poolel?
kui palju....
Re: ???
Tõde on selle poolel, kes vähem valetab.
Слава Україні!
Героям слава!
Слава Україні!
Героям слава!
NL kätte langenud sõjavangide rahvuslik koostis 22. juuni 1941-2.sept. 1945:
sakslased 2 389 560
jaapanlased 639 635
ungarlased 513 767
rumeenlased 187 370
austerlased 156 682
tshehoslovakid 69 977
poolakad 60 280
itaallased 48 957
prantslased 23 136
jugoslaavlased 21 822
moldaavlased 14 129
hiinlased 12 928
juudid 10 173
korealased 7 785
hollandlased 4 729
mongolid 3 608
soomlased 2 377
belglased 2 010
luksemburglased 1 652
taanlased 457
hispaanlased 452
mustlased 383
norralased 101
rootslased 72
Võtsin need arvud Muhini raamatust "Stalini ja Beria tapmine". Tema on need võtnud ajakirjast "Vojenno-istoritsheski zhurnal" 1990 ,nr. 9 , lk. 39-46
Ise arvan , et osadel juhtudel on loetud rahvusi 1939. aasta piiride alustel: elsasslased ,poola-sakslased ( vaevalt et poola partisane hakati sõjavangideks lugema, kuigi neid Siberi saadeti). Moldaavlased on ilmselt kirjas, sest Moldaavia liideti ametlikult Rumeeniaga ja neid mopiti ilmselt samadel alustel rumeenlastega. Ja targutajatele, et ma tean , et Jugoslaavia, Belgia ja Tshehoslavakkia ei ole rahvused, vaid kodakondsus. Kirjutasin nagu oli raamatus.
sakslased 2 389 560
jaapanlased 639 635
ungarlased 513 767
rumeenlased 187 370
austerlased 156 682
tshehoslovakid 69 977
poolakad 60 280
itaallased 48 957
prantslased 23 136
jugoslaavlased 21 822
moldaavlased 14 129
hiinlased 12 928
juudid 10 173
korealased 7 785
hollandlased 4 729
mongolid 3 608
soomlased 2 377
belglased 2 010
luksemburglased 1 652
taanlased 457
hispaanlased 452
mustlased 383
norralased 101
rootslased 72
Võtsin need arvud Muhini raamatust "Stalini ja Beria tapmine". Tema on need võtnud ajakirjast "Vojenno-istoritsheski zhurnal" 1990 ,nr. 9 , lk. 39-46
Ise arvan , et osadel juhtudel on loetud rahvusi 1939. aasta piiride alustel: elsasslased ,poola-sakslased ( vaevalt et poola partisane hakati sõjavangideks lugema, kuigi neid Siberi saadeti). Moldaavlased on ilmselt kirjas, sest Moldaavia liideti ametlikult Rumeeniaga ja neid mopiti ilmselt samadel alustel rumeenlastega. Ja targutajatele, et ma tean , et Jugoslaavia, Belgia ja Tshehoslavakkia ei ole rahvused, vaid kodakondsus. Kirjutasin nagu oli raamatus.
-
Prinz Eugen
- Liige
- Postitusi: 400
- Liitunud: 26 Aug, 2005 19:51
- Asukoht: Tallinn
- Kontakt:
-
Prinz Eugen
- Liige
- Postitusi: 400
- Liitunud: 26 Aug, 2005 19:51
- Asukoht: Tallinn
- Kontakt:
Vangide nimekirjas on kõige müstilisem number tsehhoslovakid - üle 69 000. Slovakkia sõdureid langes vangi suht vähe - kuskil 5000 ringis, tsehhid otseselt NSVL vastu ei sõdinud.
Kas võisid need olla segarahvusest isikud Saksamaaga ühendatud Sudeedimaalt, kes pidasid vajalikuks kasusaamise eesmärgil esineda Tsehhoslovakkia kodanikena või lausa tsehhidena?
Sama lugu võis olla 60 000 poolakaga - segarahvastikuga aladelt Sileesiast, Pommerist, Danzigist?
Kas võisid need olla segarahvusest isikud Saksamaaga ühendatud Sudeedimaalt, kes pidasid vajalikuks kasusaamise eesmärgil esineda Tsehhoslovakkia kodanikena või lausa tsehhidena?
Sama lugu võis olla 60 000 poolakaga - segarahvastikuga aladelt Sileesiast, Pommerist, Danzigist?
!!!
Prinz Eugeni selgitus igati mõistlik ja arusaadav.
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Prinz Eugen
- Liige
- Postitusi: 400
- Liitunud: 26 Aug, 2005 19:51
- Asukoht: Tallinn
- Kontakt:
Vangide suremus
Lääneliitlaste kätte vangilangenute kohta on olemas huvitav raamat, missugune vägagi ilmekalt (ja dokumentaalselt tõestatult) näitab, kuidas need nn. väga humaansed läänetsivilisatsioonid täiesti teadlikult ja plaanipäraselt saksa sõjavangide arvu alla viisid.
James Bacque "Der geplante Tod" (Deutsche Kriegsgefangene in amerikanischen und französischen Lagern 1945-1946) Frankfurt/M 1995
James Bacque "Der geplante Tod" (Deutsche Kriegsgefangene in amerikanischen und französischen Lagern 1945-1946) Frankfurt/M 1995
Postitusi lugedes kasuta kôigepealt oma aju (NB!! peaaju) HOMO SAPIENS !!! (e. foorumlane)
Stellung halten und sterben!!
Stellung halten und sterben!!
Ise küll Bacque raamatut lugenud pole, aga tegu näib olevat teosega sarjast "J. Lina soovitab".
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
"Fact or Fiction? The Historical Profession and James Bacque"
Roundtable discussion at the Annual Meeting of the German Studies Association, Salt Lake City, October 8-11, 1998. Sponsored by the GHI. Participants: Günter Bischof (University of New Orleans), Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University), Wilfried Mausbach (GHI), Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg), Richard D. Wiggers (Georgetown University).
The topic of discussion for this panel centered around James Bacque's allegation, made in his recent, controversial book Crimes and Mercies, that American authorities deliberately starved to death as many as nine million German civilians after World War II.
Wilfried Mausbach (GHI) challenged Bacque's contention that the infamous Morgenthau Plan informed American actions. He demonstrated first that the notion of turning Germany into a huge "farm" was never part of American postwar planning; second, that the United States's occupation directive (JCS 1067) was not cast in Morgenthau's mold; and third, that the negative elements of JCS 1067 were deliberately postponed, and thereby in effect dismissed, by Military Government officers in the field. [What does that remind me of?] Instead of evaluating the available evidence, James Bacque's dramaturgy pits villains against heroes and surrenders scholarly differentiation to populism.
Günter Bischof (University of New Orleans) viewed Bacque's thesis as part of the trend toward a "paranoid style" in writing recent history. This style is characterized by five elements: the image of a huge conspiracy, a self-bestowed duty to save civilization from apocalypse, a manichean worldview of absolute good versus absolute evil, the conviction that traitors make history, and the amassing of evidence to prove a preconceived thesis. Bischof found traces of all these elements in Bacque's writing, and he bemoaned the publishing industry's zest for "conspiracy history."
Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg) examined Bacque's thesis that approximately one million German POWs perished in American and French camps by taking a close look at two Prisoner of War Temporary Enclosures (PWTEs) in Heilbronn. Strauß found that conditions in these camps indeed did not meet the requirements of the Geneva Convention of 1929. However, to interpret this as evidence of a centrally planned and implemented policy of starvation neglects overall conditions in Germany and Europe in the wake of the war and overestimates to a considerable extent the occupation authorities' scope of action. Strauß proved that, contrary to Bacque's assertion, the Americans did allow aid to be delivered to the inmates by representatives of the German churches, and the International Red Cross also was allowed to visit the camps. Moreover, between May and December 1945 some 300,000 POWs passed through the Heilbronn PWTEs, and death lists show that only 283 of them died. This seems to indicate not only that Bacque's research was poor but also that his overall estimates of deaths are way too high.
Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University) corroborated this information. He showed that Bacque manipulated statistics by adding expellees and repatriated POWs to an early 1946 census that actually already included more than 1.5 million expellees and repatriates in addition to the unrepatriated POWs. In counting these people twice, Bacque finds that there should have been nearly 74 million people in Germany in 1950 and cries mass murder when that year's census falls short by 6 million. Professor Browder explained that he personally pointed out this mistake to Bacque while the Canadian author was revising his manuscript for publication in English. Bacque, however, failed to correct his information.
Finally, Richard D. Wiggers (Georgetown University) provided an analysis of eyewitness accounts by authors who were neither Germans nor U.S. Military Government employees. He found that these third-party observers reported and often criticized a stern allied policy toward the German people. Thus, if there was, as Bacque alleges, a conspiracy to hide the truth, it must have failed miserably. Moreover, a close, comprehensive, and unbiased reading of independent eyewitness accounts suggests that a mass death of millions of Germans by starvation did not occur in postwar Germany.
The lively discussion, moderated by Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), addressed James Bacque's motivation for writing fiction disguised as fact. It was pointed out that Bacque obviously really believes he has discovered something real and is encouraged by people in Germany who suffered after 1945 and who feel that their experience of victimization has gotten short shrift in the history of this period. However, his neglect of evidence suggests either that he is unable to acknowledge criticism or that he willfully ignores information in an effort to cash in on a sensationalist thesis. The latter supposition led participants to discuss the quixotic nature of efforts by professional historians to challenge populist histories promoted by a sensation-driven publishing industry. Some also wondered whether even the most ludicrous claims merit consideration. There seemed to be an overall agreement, however, that historians have a duty to correct gross distortions and refute wild allegations.
Wilfried Mausbach
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
"Fact or Fiction? The Historical Profession and James Bacque"
Roundtable discussion at the Annual Meeting of the German Studies Association, Salt Lake City, October 8-11, 1998. Sponsored by the GHI. Participants: Günter Bischof (University of New Orleans), Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University), Wilfried Mausbach (GHI), Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg), Richard D. Wiggers (Georgetown University).
The topic of discussion for this panel centered around James Bacque's allegation, made in his recent, controversial book Crimes and Mercies, that American authorities deliberately starved to death as many as nine million German civilians after World War II.
Wilfried Mausbach (GHI) challenged Bacque's contention that the infamous Morgenthau Plan informed American actions. He demonstrated first that the notion of turning Germany into a huge "farm" was never part of American postwar planning; second, that the United States's occupation directive (JCS 1067) was not cast in Morgenthau's mold; and third, that the negative elements of JCS 1067 were deliberately postponed, and thereby in effect dismissed, by Military Government officers in the field. [What does that remind me of?] Instead of evaluating the available evidence, James Bacque's dramaturgy pits villains against heroes and surrenders scholarly differentiation to populism.
Günter Bischof (University of New Orleans) viewed Bacque's thesis as part of the trend toward a "paranoid style" in writing recent history. This style is characterized by five elements: the image of a huge conspiracy, a self-bestowed duty to save civilization from apocalypse, a manichean worldview of absolute good versus absolute evil, the conviction that traitors make history, and the amassing of evidence to prove a preconceived thesis. Bischof found traces of all these elements in Bacque's writing, and he bemoaned the publishing industry's zest for "conspiracy history."
Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg) examined Bacque's thesis that approximately one million German POWs perished in American and French camps by taking a close look at two Prisoner of War Temporary Enclosures (PWTEs) in Heilbronn. Strauß found that conditions in these camps indeed did not meet the requirements of the Geneva Convention of 1929. However, to interpret this as evidence of a centrally planned and implemented policy of starvation neglects overall conditions in Germany and Europe in the wake of the war and overestimates to a considerable extent the occupation authorities' scope of action. Strauß proved that, contrary to Bacque's assertion, the Americans did allow aid to be delivered to the inmates by representatives of the German churches, and the International Red Cross also was allowed to visit the camps. Moreover, between May and December 1945 some 300,000 POWs passed through the Heilbronn PWTEs, and death lists show that only 283 of them died. This seems to indicate not only that Bacque's research was poor but also that his overall estimates of deaths are way too high.
Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University) corroborated this information. He showed that Bacque manipulated statistics by adding expellees and repatriated POWs to an early 1946 census that actually already included more than 1.5 million expellees and repatriates in addition to the unrepatriated POWs. In counting these people twice, Bacque finds that there should have been nearly 74 million people in Germany in 1950 and cries mass murder when that year's census falls short by 6 million. Professor Browder explained that he personally pointed out this mistake to Bacque while the Canadian author was revising his manuscript for publication in English. Bacque, however, failed to correct his information.
Finally, Richard D. Wiggers (Georgetown University) provided an analysis of eyewitness accounts by authors who were neither Germans nor U.S. Military Government employees. He found that these third-party observers reported and often criticized a stern allied policy toward the German people. Thus, if there was, as Bacque alleges, a conspiracy to hide the truth, it must have failed miserably. Moreover, a close, comprehensive, and unbiased reading of independent eyewitness accounts suggests that a mass death of millions of Germans by starvation did not occur in postwar Germany.
The lively discussion, moderated by Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), addressed James Bacque's motivation for writing fiction disguised as fact. It was pointed out that Bacque obviously really believes he has discovered something real and is encouraged by people in Germany who suffered after 1945 and who feel that their experience of victimization has gotten short shrift in the history of this period. However, his neglect of evidence suggests either that he is unable to acknowledge criticism or that he willfully ignores information in an effort to cash in on a sensationalist thesis. The latter supposition led participants to discuss the quixotic nature of efforts by professional historians to challenge populist histories promoted by a sensation-driven publishing industry. Some also wondered whether even the most ludicrous claims merit consideration. There seemed to be an overall agreement, however, that historians have a duty to correct gross distortions and refute wild allegations.
Wilfried Mausbach
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